Good night
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happy_wis
初級會員   |
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happy_wis
初級會員 |
發表於: 星期五 2007-06-22 07:33
Good morning
I may be wrong about the definition of "Tradition".... but according to the following: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tradition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradition 1: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable 2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction Yes, tradition has to be created... but I won't call something new today as "tradition".... Well.... it may be "tradition" 10 years or 20 years later.... but not now... p.s.: By the way, I really think the marketing of brands from Richemont is really excellent... Another great example is "Panerai". I am wondering if they shares the same marketing wisdom / know-how.... similar to the "sharing" of JLC's big date with Lange. |
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Vin-Wei
進階會員  |
發表於: 星期五 2007-06-22 11:42
For ordinary people or watch lover live in Taiwan, I can hardly feel any marketing strategy or saw any promotion activity of Richemont for Lange in the past few years, except for some advertisement on the magazine. So the Richemont PR guy must be very proud of themself now even though they did not do much efforts in Taiwan.
The purchase of watch is a mixure of many factors, including but not limited to punctual time-keeping (ironically this is probably the least important factor for majority of watch collectors), investment, appreciation of craftmanship and aesthetic, and probably showing-off. PP has all these factor and no wonder it is the major target of collector. Uhrfan has provided many good reasons why Lange is worth buying, but these are from the sense and logical thinking side. For me, buying a Lange is purely out of sensibility, I do not really care about all the other factors and whether Lange is the inventor of big date or not, or use of 3/4 plate and German silver, to me, it touched my heart and create the desire of ownership, that is quite enough. I know when collecting of PP has became a cult, it is meaningless to reasoning. But may I ask the other brand collector, if Lange's auction price will go higer and higher, will this change your view point about Lange and start to collect? To me the PP auction price is already at the peak, when you reach the peak, there is no where to go except to go down. Of course I may be wrong about the peak price of PP as I was wrong about the Taiwan stock index. 
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claudetsai
資深會員   |
發表於: 星期五 2007-06-22 15:56
其實 高手happy_wis大大 偶爾會打幾個中文字
因此 他一定看得懂中文 也許只是不常打中文罷了 小弟拙見 常打中文的錶友們 還是用中文表達 這樣一定更精準 熱烈 精彩 
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uhrfan
白金會員   |
發表於: 星期五 2007-06-22 20:49
I think what we were talking about was tradition’s meanings, not definition. Searching answer from a dictionary usually means you need help (sorry, not personal).
Dictionary can tell you definition but not implications. If you don’t think tradition can be new, it’s all fine and please sticks with your view. However, you cannot stop people from challenging old tradition and create new wave of thinking and practices. I made a few reasons why people like Lange simply because I wanted to provide logical answer to someone. I used ”Why people like Lange”, instead of “Why I like Lange” to ask the question indicated that I have some different thinking. Vin-Wei’s “ buying a watch that touches your heart ” really inspired me, as that was the reason I bought my Lange one 8 or 9 years ago in Hong Kong (I still remember, at that time, a now very famous “watch expert” criticized Lange One was an ugly watch) I also agreed what Vin-Wei’s view that we actually did not see too much Lange’s marketing activities in Taiwan. Where or when did I got poisoned by Lange – no idea. However, I (and believe that everyone on the Watchbus) have been seeing quite a bit of PP’s “generation to generation” advisement that pushing the value of “tradition”. Instead of Lange doing a great marketing work, I actually believe that PP has been doing a fantastic marketing job that brainwash all of its (potential) clients (that should include me ). The brainwash has been so successful that few people challenge PP why it had not developed new movement for decades before 2006? And why Caliber 315 always has some small problems?
May be the company have been too sticking with its “tradition” to fix things or develop new things. (Shit, this is aggressive comment and I would like to recall it). 
I know. I know. The correct answer shall be that PP’s movements and products have been so perfect (because they are all produced form “traditional” ways) that they do not have to do too many changes, because the product sells itself. (I think PP fans prefer this answer) 
My final puzzle about PP (although I own a lots) is that why people have to “beg” their watch dealers to get them a 5712, or 5711, or 5970, or 5980, or 5960, or 5004, or 5396, or 5350, or 5565,…..? I really do not get it. A possible answer: PP intentionally reduce production and leverage mass media and auction to create shortage & price appreciation massages that drive PP fans going crazy (opsssss, that include me again ) to chase after those “dream watches”. (Sorry, too aggressive comment again, Recall. Recall)
The correct answer is that a high quality PP watch (that produced from “traditional” way) would worth 50~100% higher even it only changes the casing without changing the caliber. (Shit, wrong answer again. Recall. Recall)
My conclusion is that (my real conclusion), in terms of marketing and product promotion skill, both Lange and Panerai have been lacking behind PP by big margin and both of the brands have to knell before PP and call the latter “Big Master” . Those who believe that collecting Lange was a trendy thing shall now convinced that collecting PP is a “real trendy” thing . 
*&*&^%$$*&, I must be in a nightmare that dares to talk so much (negatives) about the No. one watch brand. Shit, what if PP instructs all of its dealers not to sell a single PP watch to me? I must call my dealer and tell him that this article is nothing to do with me. 
I would call right now……..hope the shop is till open 
對不起,下次一定改回中文. |
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uhrfan
白金會員 |
發表於: 星期六 2007-06-23 00:02
By the way, when Lange One launched in 1994, both JLC and Lange were not a part of Richemont |
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happy_wis
初級會員 |
發表於: 星期六 2007-06-23 00:15
That's exactly why you did not see that much marketing back then until Richemont group took over them... Actually, I would suggest you to find out the relationship between Lange and JLC... you may find it interesting if you don't know that. |
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uhrfan
白金會員 |
發表於: 星期六 2007-06-23 00:20
I knew their relationship, including IWC. I believe everyone does marketing. Like it ? Hate it? Live with it and ignore it. |
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happy_wis
初級會員 |
發表於: 星期六 2007-06-23 00:22
Mr uhrfan,
I am sorry to see you a bit upset about my replies (well... at least I think I can say that you are a bit "emotional" now... as you had use "shit" three times in your last reply... and your last reply is a bit less readable than before..). Please let me emphasize that I am here for healthy discussion.... Please do let me know if you want me to stop replying at any time. I don't want to make anyone upset... Yes, you are right. I need help regarding the meaning of "Tradition" (i.e. 傳統) because it looks like that we have different definitions about 傳統.... you use "New Tradition" (新傳統) and "Old Tradition" (舊傳統) in your replies.... However, in my mind, there is nothing called "新傳統". Again, here is the definition of 傳統 in chinese: 傳統 解釋 世代相傳，有傳承延續性質的社會因素，如風俗、道德、習慣、信仰、思想等。如：勤儉是中國人的傳統美德。 ( http://140.111.34.46/cgi-bin/dict/GetContent.cgi?Database=dict&DocNum=118278&GraphicWord=yes&QueryString=%B6%C7%B2%CE ) Yes, you can 創造傳統 but you may not 簡單地創造某物就說這是傳統... It needs time to convert something to 傳統... I have a few questions if you don't mind: 1. You mentioned that "Lange’s three-quarter plate, gold chatons, goose-shape micrometric regulators are all traditional German way of watch making".... With the DEFINITION of Tradition (based on the world famous Merriam-Webster Dictionary), are you still considering "Lange’s three-quarter plate, gold chatons, goose-shape micrometric regulators are all traditional German way of watch making". If not, did some marketing material (e.g. articles in watch magazines, watch forums, etc.) guided you to think so? Or you think Lange is using traditional watch making items (e.g. three-quarter plate, gold chatons, goose-shape micrometric regulator) in making their watches and trying to 創造德國傳統? 2. You mentioned that "The company uses different material (German silver) and approach to achieve better polish result is something new." With my previous reply about German Silver, do you still consider it is NEW (in the watch industry) for Lange to use German Silver to make movement? 3. You mentioned that "Vin-Wei’s “buying a watch that touches your heart” really inspired me, as that was the reason I bought my Lange one 8 or 9 years ago in Hong Kong..." I am a bit confused about the above statement (about the timing issue).... Why you said Vin-Wei's "buying a watch that touches your heart" INSPIRED you? Did you know him 8 or 9 years ago and he inspired you 8 or 9 years ago when you bought your Lange One? Or He just inspired you with his reply and NOW you know WHY you bought your Lange one 8 or 9 years ago? For me, I have been doing this (i.e. buying a watch that touches my heart) since day one. I don't need someone to inspire me about this... 4. I understand that Lange market their watches/movements as "one calibre for one watch model only".... Yes, it is ground breaking... but do you really think that it is important? To me, a watch is more than just its movement... overall design is important too... A watch has to be at least visually appealing in order to be success.... (look at 3712 vs 5085... you will know what I am talking about). What's wrong of having 2 models share the same movement? I see none... Actually, look at Lange now.... with such big commitment, they are in trouble (in my opinion).... Lange 31 is a good example for this. 5. Regarding the Lange's marketing... there are something called "Direct" marketing and "Indirect" marketing... For Direct marketing, you know that you are being marketed for something... e.g. New Watch Launching Cocktail Event, Dinner function, etc... I don't know about Taiwan, but we have a lot here... For Indirect marketing, you may not know that you are being marketed for something... e.g. Watch report in magazine, articles from watch forums. (FYI, some international watch forums are indeed directly/indirectly sponsored by the big groups... Richemont is definitely one of the big supporter for these watch forums) I do read a few Taiwan watch magazine... I would suggest you to read your old magazine again to see how much about German watch making were "discussed" (actually, I should call these "indirect marketing) there... You may be amazed when you find out the number of such "discussions". 6. PP's marketing.... Yes, they do marketing as well... They have something like "You never actually own a PP, you merely look after it for your next generations"... or something like "buying a PP now and create your own tradition", etc... Do you see there is something wrong / mis-leading in their marketing? Indeed, they are just talking about Facts. Right? 7. 315 movement... I own quite a few 315 but I don't have a single problem.... What do you mean by "Caliber 315 always has some small problems"??? 8. You mentioned that "PP intentionally reduce production and leverage mass media and auction to create shortage & price appreciation massages that drive PP fans going crazy (opsssss, that include me again ) to chase after those “dream watches”..... If it is that simple, why Lange (or other brands) don't do it? To me, it is simple, people are not stupid. They understand "true tradition value". 9. I feel EXTREMELY SORRY for people who "beg" for watches, or pay premium to grey dealer to buy a so-called "hot" models. For me, I never even pay any premium or "beg" for any watch... no matter it is 3712, 5350, or 5565... I just ask to see if I can get one. If I can get it, I feel I have the "緣".... If I cannot get it, I feel I don't have the "緣". It is that simple. I don't think there is any watch in the world that is a "must have". If I cannot get this one, I can always look for another one. My simple answer to the question why "people beg for watch" is that they want to speculate on watch for money reward. Do you agree? 10. Regarding "trendy".... I see a few people (who I don't know) in the lift in my office building wearing Lange One and Lange One MP.... I saw a guy in a nice sushi place wearing a Lange One... One of my friend is collecting many many Lange... from Lange 1 to TZ, DS, Dato, Dato Perpetual, etc... I think it depends on your circle. If you know a lot of people who like collecting "fine" watch... they are probably buying too. My conclusion: Buying a watch is just a simple and joyful activity. What you need to do is to buy the watch that you like... no matter it is a G-Shock, a Longine or a PP. We don't need consensus (意見一致) in order to buy a watch. Listening to other's opinion is good but don't just follow. Again, don't take other's comment too seriously if they have different viewpoint than you do... We don't need consensus in how we view things as well. Good luck. |
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happy_wis
初級會員 |
發表於: 星期六 2007-06-23 00:54
Ha ha 
Yes, I can fully understand chinese... I seldom type in chinese because 1. my English is poor... my Chinese is even worse.... 2. I don't know any chinese inputing method.... 3. I am using Apple Mac computer (Intel version)... no chinese hand-writing device is available (yet)... It is good for other 常打中文的錶友們用中文表達 
p.s. BTW, do you know how I type chinese??? I am using copy-and-paste.... using some on-line "English-Chinese" dictionary... to find out the chinese characters... It would take me long long long time to find all the words that I need to do the "copy-and-paste" 
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